Banned for not knowing an unwritten rule of the server.

[username123]

Your Byond ID:

Locoloco3001

Character Name:

I was playing that round as Kyler Walker.

Type Of Ban (Job-ban, Timed Ban, Permaban):

Timed.

Admin who banned you (if known):

Mod: Toroic

Total Ban Duration:

24 hours

Remaining Duration:

23.9 hours

What other servers do you play on?

Paradise, hippie, fallout 13, aurora.

Are you now or have you been banned on any of them?

Not currently banned, but i've been banned in all of them, like everyone else, no one is a saint.

Reason for ban (If you have a Permaban, it should be the EXACT MESSAGE YOU GET WHEN YOU LOGIN with the Error code that looks like this: X##XXX##. If you do not provide this EXACTLY you can't be unbanned):

Reason: Research nades in the hanger, was warned..

Link to previous appeals for the same ban (if applicable):

First appeal.

Your appeal, including evidence (screenshots, etc):

1-) The only rule against the use of chemnades is when:

A:"If you give a deadly super-grenade to someone who uses it to grief, you may be held accountable, so be mindful of who you give what"

I distributed chemnades to marines, none of them as far as i know were using to grief, they were used to fight the aliens that were boarding the sulaco in the hangar, i also warned everyone about the radius of the explosion and the timer of the grenades, this can be verified checking the logs.

B:"Be careful what grenades you make and who you give them to. Handing out super-deadly-lethal grenades that damage the Sulaco or Lag the server may result in a job-ban."

The grenades were not super deadly, they had 80 potassium and 80 water, no one of them lagged the server and no one of them damaged the sulaco, all they did at most was a few scratches to the floor of the hangar.

2-) Yes, Toroic warned in ooc that "To be clear, research grenades are not allowed in hanger defense. You have been warned." but again, there are no rules against that in the current rules that we all can see here: http://cm-ss13.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=5094 and we players, should not be intimidated by warnings that a mod makes over ooc about something that does not exist in the rules, am i right? if that warn was made by an admin, it would be diferent, because admins can do whatever they want by using the rule 0, but Toroic is not an admin, he is a mod.

I have used chemnades since i started to play in the server and i was only banned once when those grenades used to made breaches (damaged the sulaco), but chemnades no longer breach the sulaco and since then, i was able to use them with no problem till now. I don't have anything more to say, it is pretty clear that i was banned for breaking a rule that does not exist.

[Feweh]

Just out curiosity, if you acknowledged a mod/admin saying beforehand not to do something and you still did it.... why?

[username123]

Just out curiosity, if you acknowledged a mod/admin saying beforehand not to do something and you still did it.... why?

If a mod tells everyone over OOC that X thing is not allowed, it's logic to think that is because it is something that is against the rules, in this case, he said that "To be clear, research grenades are not allowed in hanger defense. You have been warned." and this is not true if we take a look at the rules.

If an ADMIN tells everyone over OOC that X thing is not allowed, it does not even matter if it is not in the rules, because admins can bend the rules to the benefit of the current round or the server by using the Rule 0.

This makes sense, right?

Im not trying to be a dick, toroic is a good player, but when you are getting banned for something that you have done in the past because it was valid, but for some reason today it is not allowed and it is also not written in the rules, do you think that i fair? that's what it makes me think that im being banned for not knowing an unwritten rule.

[NoahKirchner]

Just out curiosity, if you acknowledged a mod/admin saying beforehand not to do something and you still did it.... why?

I was on the server at the time, and the admin's text was barely visible amongst the comm chatter, unless you were actively paying attention you wouldn't have been able to see it.

[Feweh]

If a mod tells everyone over OOC that X thing is not allowed, it's logic to think that is because it is something that is against the rules, in this case, he said that "To be clear, research grenades are not allowed in hanger defense. You have been warned." and this is not true if we take a look at the rules.

If an ADMIN tells everyone over OOC that X thing is not allowed, it does not even matter if it is not in the rules, because admins can bend the rules to the benefit of the current round or the server by using the Rule 0.

This makes sense, right?

Im not trying to be a dick, toroic is a good player, but when you are getting banned for something that you have done in the past because it was valid, but for some reason today it is not allowed and it is also not written in the rules, do you think that i fair? that's what it makes me think that im being banned for not knowing an unwritten rule.

Respect the Staff - If you have an issue with them, follow what they say, and then file a complaint. If you argue with the staff, expect to be muted or have your punishment increased.

This is right in the rules?
If you didn't see the previous warning we might have another issue here, but you're acknowledging that you saw the Mod's warning and said "I don't care, I'm going to do it anyways"

What did you think would happen?

[username123]

Respect the Staff - If you have an issue with them, follow what they say, and then file a complaint. If you argue with the staff, expect to be muted or have your punishment increased.

This is right in the rules?
If you didn't see the previous warning we might have another issue here, but you're acknowledging that you saw the Mod's warning and said "I don't care, I'm going to do it anyways"

What did you think would happen?

I treated with respect Toroic while he pm'd me i in no way disrespect Toroic and if i did, i'd like to know what i did that offended Toroic. You also are exagerating everything, i never said or acted like if i don't care, i care about the rules of the server , and we have to make something clear here, there is a big difference between obeying and respecting, as far as i know, i did not disrespect toroic, all i did was not obeying something that he said over ooc that is not against the rules, If a mod all of the sudden says on ooc per example "Don't drink alcohol in the game" and everyone does, that does not mean that people are disrespecting the mod, it only means that they are doing something that is within the boundaries of the rules, that they are playing the game.

[Aetsuki]

Moderators are there to not only enforce rules, but ensure fun for all players. In essence, if a mod tells you not to do something, and you ignore it, than you ignore it at your own loss. If you believe you're in the right, file a staff complaint. Don't just ignore them. Xenos are also players, and the grenades were likely disallowed because they were too overpowered for a confined space.

[username123]

-1

Moderators are there to not only enforce rules, but ensure fun for all players. In essence, if a mod tells you not to do something, and you ignore it, than you ignore it at your own loss. If you believe you're in the right, file a staff complaint. Don't just ignore them. Xenos are also players, and the grenades were likely disallowed because they were too overpowered for a confined space.

If a mod tells you that you have to do something because he says so, while that "something" is not against the rules, and you get banned not only for something that is not written in the rules, but because you disrespected the mod by not obeying everything that he says, how would you feel?

if the use of chemnades were against the rules, we would have a rule to prevent people to make then and use them, but there are no rules against that, and this is something that i have done, and most people have done in the past without a punishment, why all of the sudden is this forbidden?

Marines are players too, not all the fun goes to xenos, im pretty sure that some marines had fun using the grenades in the hangar.

[Jdobbin49]

It is known by a lot of people we have a problem with chemnades right now so even though it isn't actually written in the rules if toroic told you specifically not to do that because it would ruin the round like it has done in the past for the alien community. You didn't disrespect toroic but from what I gather you did see the message toroic had said about it and going against what he said would technically be breaking a different rule so you weren't banned for not knowing an unwritten rule you were banned for not acknowledging a written rule.

[username123]

It is known by a lot of people we have a problem with chemnades right now so even though it isn't actually written in the rules if toroic told you specifically not to do that because it would ruin the round like it has done in the past for the alien community. You didn't disrespect toroic but from what I gather you did see the message toroic had said about it and going against what he said would technically be breaking a different rule so you weren't banned for not knowing an unwritten rule you were banned for not acknowledging a written rule.

"for not acknowledging a written rule." what rule?

[Jdobbin49]

The one that feweh quoted, follow what staff say and if you have a problem with it make a staff complaint.

[Feweh]

I treated with respect Toroic while he pm'd me i in no way disrespect Toroic and if i did, i'd like to know what i did that offended Toroic. You also are exagerating everything, i never said or acted like if i don't care, i care about the rules of the server , and we have to make something clear here, there is a big difference between obeying and respecting, as far as i know, i did not disrespect toroic, all i did was not obeying something that he said over ooc that is not against the rules, If a mod all of the sudden says on ooc per example "Don't drink alcohol in the game" and everyone does, that does not mean that people are disrespecting the mod, it only means that they are doing something that is within the boundaries of the rules, that they are playing the game.

No, but if he said not to do something you don't do it.
You then file a complaint saying a mod is saying "i can't do this" and you wait for someone else on the staff team to look into the issue.

Respect isn't just verbal communication, it's actions. Your action of ignoring the mods warning IS disrespectful and also breaking server rules.
This ban will stick as you blatantly ignored a member of staff's warning despite acknowledging you saw said warning.

Also, we're having issues with research grenades currently. As I type this a member of staff is fixing them and nerfing them, hence why Toroic was/is in the right regarding your ban and his warning.

[username123]

The one that feweh quoted, follow what staff say and if you have a problem with it make a staff complaint.

Im pretty sure that the rule 3, the one about "respect the staff" only means that you have to respect them and obey them when they are in the right. If this rule was taken with a restrictive interpretation, it would mean that you not only have to respect the staff (host, headmins, headmods, admins, mods and mentors) but to obey everything that they said.

If we use the interpretation that you are stating, all players would have to do everything that staff says, if a mentor tells you to jump out of the rasputin and you don't do it, you would be breaking the "Respect the staff" rule, but im sure this rule does not work like that, am i right?

[Jdobbin49]

Im pretty sure that the rule 3, the one about "respect the staff" only means that you have to respect them and obey them when they are in the right. If this rule was taken with a restrictive interpretation, it would mean that you not only have to respect the staff (host, headmins, headmods, admins, mods and mentors) but to obey everything that they said.

If we use the interpretation that you are stating, all players would have to do everything that staff says, if a mentor tells you to jump out of the rasputin and you don't do it, you would be breaking the "Respect the staff" rule, but im sure this rule does not work like that, am i right?

I'm not getting into this with you, feweh has already stated the reasoning behind it and I was trying to say what he said but it just didn't come out as well.

[Biolock]

Im pretty sure that the rule 3, the one about "respect the staff" only means that you have to respect them and obey them when they are in the right. If this rule was taken with a restrictive interpretation, it would mean that you not only have to respect the staff (host, headmins, headmods, admins, mods and mentors) but to obey everything that they said.

If we use the interpretation that you are stating, all players would have to do everything that staff says, if a mentor tells you to jump out of the rasputin and you don't do it, you would be breaking the "Respect the staff" rule, but im sure this rule does not work like that, am i right?

We are dawned moderators because we are seen as fit to act defensively in the best interest of the server; by disobeying us, you are disobeying the people who entrusted us with this authority, in this case Apop and the heads of staff. If you've got a problem with the way one of us is enacting our Apop given rights, then report it to them using the staff complaint forums. That is the procedure for how this server is run. It's not a democracy, hell, it's really not even a republic; it's an apopacracy, and what he says, goes. He gave Toroic the authority to temporarily act on behalf of himself, and therefor, you're to follow his orders. No one forces you to grow in this garden, but if you decide to, you will drink the water the gardener gives you. It is not YOUR place to tell a moderator on HIS sever that he's wrong, and then disobey his orders. If you think it's a problem, you report it, and let his superiors deal with it.

[username123]

We are dawned moderators because we are seen as fit to act defensively in the best interest of the server; by disobeying us, you are disobeying the people who entrusted us with this authority, in this case Apop and the heads of staff. If you've got a problem with the way one of us is enacting our Apop given rights, then report it to them using the staff complaint forums. That is the procedure for how this server is run. It's not a democracy, hell, it's really not even a republic; it's an apopacracy, and what he says, goes. He gave Toroic the authority to temporarily act on behalf of himself, and therefor, you're to follow his orders. No one forces you to grow in this garden, but if you decide to, you will drink the water the gardener gives you. It is not YOUR place to tell a moderator on HIS sever that he's wrong, and then disobey his orders. If you think it's a problem, you report it, and let his superiors deal with it.

Understood then, im being banned not for distributing chemnades as researcher, but for not obeying what a mod said over ooc even when what he said was something that is not in the rules.

Next time when a mod says something over ooc, i will do it, even if the mod is enforcing a rule that does not exist in the current rules. This can be locked i guess. But i like to know my charges, because now we are talking about respect, and not about the use of chemnades, which was the reason Toroic gave when he banned me which was "Reason: Research nades in the hanger, was warned.." and not something like "Reason: Not following my instruction (rule 3)"

[Toroic]

Username123, I appreciate you being respectful throughout this process. I've been reading everything, but have avoided responding due to wanting to hear from higher staff.

We've been having a problem lately with rounds ending abruptly and in staff's opinion unfairly as the majority or entirety of xeno teams are destroyed on the sulaco in the hanger as a result of research grenade spam. I've witnessed other staff applying bans under similar circumstances and had given a warning over OOC to try and prevent it from happening again.

To my understanding, research grenades are allowed on other parts of the sulaco as well as on the planet. I'm not sure if the research grenades on the dropship planetside were timers or thrown by marines, but hiding research grenades on the ship and blowing them in transit would likely lead to a similar outcome.

I would've applied a shorter ban but had issued a warning over OOC and you have been talked to about chemnades before.

I took the actions I took purely out of interest in having the round be fun and fair for both teams, and look forward to playing with you again once the ban expires.

If you'd like to discuss this further or to share how you'd prefer me to approach you I'm happy to do so via Pm.