Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

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Surrealistik
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Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Surrealistik » 27 Oct 2016, 19:19

Summary (a quick, 2-3 sentence summary):

This proposal intends to overhaul and standardize incendiaries/incendiary mechanics so they're not basically ridiculous like that absurd Napalm recipe that uses phoron for some reason, and flamethrowers utilizing phoron instead of hydrocarbons.

New chemistry recipes have been added that enable napalm, fuel and plastics manufacturing.

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Benefits (How this will benefit the server and game as a whole):

Improved realism.

Vastly improves existing incendiary mechanics, making them more intuitive and logical and less totally arbitrary; gets rid of 'magical fire'.

Easier incendiary manufacture that doesn't rely on a precious and extremely limited commodity (phoron), particularly as there is no mining department. Gives chemistry a way to manufacture plastics and replenish fuel and napalm stores.


Details (Description of how you think this would work, the benefits, etc):


General Incendiary Mechanics:

Flammable/incendiary substances now apply X burning stacks to a turf/mob/etc. Each cycle the burning stack value for each flame is reduced and burning damage is applied (to all Mobs and susceptible Objects/Walls in a burning tile or to a burning Mob; either via existing temperature mechanics or a formula that scales burn damage with burning temperature). Then, if the fire is on a Turf or Mob and there is a combustable substance/object in an adjacent Turf or on an adjacent Mob (or in a Mob's case, in the same space) that the fire is hot enough to ignite, it will spread there. When the burning stack value of a Mob or Turf is reduced to 0 or less, the burning on that Mob or Turf ends immediately. Though such fires do not consume oxygen or convert it into CO2/waste gas (out of necessity to prevent atmos fuckery), they need sufficient levels of atmospheric oxygen to ignite, and a burning fire starved of adequate oxygen will rapidly lose burn stacks each cycle. Water and other extinguishing substances work by reducing burning stack values, as does stop drop and roll for Marines, and perhaps using the Aid intent on an ignited Xeno (including oneself) as a Xeno while stationary for 1+ seconds. Fires do not raise atmospheric temperatures (again out of necessity).

Objects in a burning tile may be consumed by a fire if the fire is hot enough to combust/destroy it (paper has a much lower point of combustion than say a wooden wall/barricade, and extremely high temperatures are required to melt/destroy a metal wall). Objects that combust add burn stacks to a fire, and present an avenue for fire spread; these mechanics are lower priority and can be added later (adding burning metrics/data and such to shitloads of objects is definitely tedious fucking work).


Each flammable/incendiary substance has the following standard properties: a stack value per # of Units/U, ignition point and burning temperature.

The higher the stack value, the longer something burns (obviously).

The higher the burning temperature, the more burn damage dealt (Thermite and Napalm burn hotter than say oil). If multiple flammable substances are ignited on the same Turf/Mob, their burning stacks are combined and a weighted average is used to determine the burning temperature as determined by the amount of each flammable substance. The illumination produced by a fire also scales with its burning temperature.

Ignition point determines at what temperature the substance actually combusts (oil combusts at a much lower temperature than proper jelled napalm or thermite).



Recipes (Common incendiary substances):

Modern napalm is essentially an oil derivative and mixture of hydrocarbons (benzene, gasoline, polystyrene; basically a fuck ton of C and H with the occasional O per certain gasoline compositions). Also it probably should not ignite immediately on mixing; proper napalm is actually quite stable and requires a specialized igniter.

Oil: C + H (Imidazoline synthesis takes priority when Dylovene is present)
Properties: Low ignition point, moderate # of burn stacks, low burning temperature.

Plasticide: Oil + N + S (Already exists as a chem; now it can be synthesized)
Properties: Plastic. Used as a solidifying/gelling agent for napalm.

Welding Fuel: Oil + O + Ethanol (Already exists as a chem; now it can be synthesized)
Properties: Low ignition point, very low # of burn stacks, very high burning temperature

Napalm: Welding Fuel + Plasticide; now needs to be heated in order to ignite (such as via an igniting device or high ambient temperatures) instead of autoigniting when synthesized.
Properties: Moderate ignition point (simple flames won't produce enough heat; an Igniter will), high # of burn stacks, high burning temperature

Thermite: Recipe unchanged.
Properties: High ignition point, extremely low # of burn stacks, extremely high burning temperature. Melts any incendiary device it's used with, and will spread thermite in/ignite the user Mob and that user's Turf (for example a flamethrower would melt after one use and ignite the user/user's tile).

Utilization of Incendiaries: Incendiary agents are typically used in grenades and flamethrowers; the grenade or flamethrower disperses a quantity of the substance over an area of Turfs/tiles (and all Mobs in that area) and immediately ignites it.

Incendiary agents may also be spread on a Turf/tile to be ignited later as a trap; this usually leaves conspicuous puddles of viscous or slippery goop. Acid (Corrosive Acid and Boiler Gas and Acid Sprays) can neutralize such puddles/spilt incendiary agents.


Implementation (Optional, if you have an idea how to implement it):

Coding changes. Recipes provided below:

Code: Select all

   oil
         name = "Oil"
         id = "oil"
         result = "oil"
         required_reagents = list("carbon" = 1, "hydrogen" = 1)
         result_amount = 2

      fuel
         name = "Welding fuel"
         id = "fuel"
         result = "fuel"
         required_reagents = list("oil" = 1, "oxygen" = 1, "ethanol" = 1)
         result_amount = 3

      plasticide
         name = "Plasticide"
         id = "plasticide"
         result = "plasticide"
         required_reagents = list("oil" = 1, "nitrogen" = 1, "sulfur" = 1)
         result_amount = 3

      napalm
         name = "Napalm"
         id = "napalm"
         result = "napalm"
         required_reagents = list("fuel" = 1, "plasticide" = 1)
         result_amount = 2
Last edited by Surrealistik on 29 Oct 2016, 15:59, edited 16 times in total.
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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by jaggaaff » 28 Oct 2016, 08:55

+1 I want more ways to make researcher the best fucking explosives expert.

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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Jroinc1 » 28 Oct 2016, 16:37

+1
I'd like to be able to make improvised AOE firebombs WITHOUT phoron-flooding.
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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Casany » 28 Oct 2016, 19:13

Wouldn't this fuck up atmos badly? Because that was originally why napalm was removed
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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Surrealistik » 28 Oct 2016, 19:16

Casany wrote:Wouldn't this fuck up atmos badly? Because that was originally why napalm was removed
No, because these fires wouldn't generate CO2/other waste gasses (or consume Oxygen, but depriving a fire of adequate O2 should reduce its burn stacks each cycle); that's probably the only magical thing about them.
Last edited by Surrealistik on 28 Oct 2016, 19:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Casany » 28 Oct 2016, 19:18

Surrealistik wrote:No, because these fires wouldn't generate CO2/other waste gasses; that's probably the only magical thing about them.
Phoron fires (I think) don't generate waste gasses yet they utterly FUCK atmos
"He killed me with a SADAR and it was bullshit. We should ban him for ERP because of how VIOLENTLY HE FUCKED ME" - Biolock, Saturday 15 October 2016

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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Surrealistik » 28 Oct 2016, 19:22

Casany wrote:Phoron fires (I think) don't generate waste gasses yet they utterly FUCK atmos
They probably consume O2 and/or heat the immediate area in that case, which they would not per my proposal.
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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Casany » 28 Oct 2016, 19:24

Surrealistik wrote:They probably consume O2 and/or heat the immediate area in that case, which they would not per my proposal.
They actually mix with the O2, and generate pressure and heat. Do your fires do that?
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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Surrealistik » 28 Oct 2016, 19:25

Casany wrote:They actually mix with the O2, and generate pressure and heat. Do your fires do that?
No. Atmos fuckery causes too many gameplay problems while being resource intensive.
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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Jroinc1 » 28 Oct 2016, 23:36

Okay. Phoron fires create HEAT and waste gasses. The heat spikes pressure, making it difficult to clean, and the temp and pressure kill anything unprotected.

This is not that. This is a fire recipe like the flamers we use, where it's just "magic" damage.
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3 Nov 16-15 Jan 17

Atmos bombs built- 16
Hull breaches repaired- 6
Charged SMs manually dragged to space- 2
Backup tcomms systems set- 4
SM de-lamination weapons detonated- 0
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Engine SMs de-laminated on my watch- 0

Upper deck engines made-1
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Total kills with SM- 6

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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Surrealistik » 28 Oct 2016, 23:47

JPR wrote:Okay. Phoron fires create HEAT and waste gasses. The heat spikes pressure, making it difficult to clean, and the temp and pressure kill anything unprotected.

This is not that. This is a fire recipe like the flamers we use, where it's just "magic" damage.
Exactly.

However keep in mind that flames produced via these mechanics do have 'heat' in so far as burning temperatures are concerned which depend on the fuel/incendiary agent, and damage scales with that heat/burning temperature.

That said, I'm not sure if it would employ existing temperature mechanics and deal damage that way by heating specific mobs/walls etc (rather than creating generalized atmospheric heat), or simply applying burn damage that scales with the burning temperature per a separate formula; whichever is less resource intensive is probably best.
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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Jroinc1 » 29 Oct 2016, 08:27

Surrealistik wrote:Exactly.

However keep in mind that flames produced via these mechanics do have 'heat' in so far as burning temperatures are concerned which depend on the fuel/incendiary agent, and damage scales with that heat/burning temperature.

That said, I'm not sure if it would employ existing temperature mechanics and deal damage that way by heating specific mobs/walls etc (rather than creating generalized atmospheric heat), or simply applying burn damage that scales with the burning temperature per a separate formula; whichever is less resource intensive is probably best.
Just apply burn damage. Making actual atmos heat would be... bad on the ship, and nightmarish planetside.
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3 Nov 16-15 Jan 17

Atmos bombs built- 16
Hull breaches repaired- 6
Charged SMs manually dragged to space- 2
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Upper deck engines made-1
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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Surrealistik » 29 Oct 2016, 13:14

JPR wrote:Just apply burn damage. Making actual atmos heat would be... bad on the ship, and nightmarish planetside.
I think you misunderstand; it heats discrete objects/mobs, it doesn't actually generate atmospheric heat (unless heated objects/mobs do in which case it should just apply scaling burn damage).
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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Jroinc1 » 29 Oct 2016, 13:54

Surrealistik wrote:I think you misunderstand; it heats discrete objects/mobs, it doesn't actually generate atmospheric heat (unless heated objects/mobs do in which case it should just apply scaling burn damage).
"Heating" mobs (objects can't currently be heated) could work, but the regular air temp would quickly cool them down, but that can be worked around.
Mentor-
3 Nov 16-15 Jan 17

Atmos bombs built- 16
Hull breaches repaired- 6
Charged SMs manually dragged to space- 2
Backup tcomms systems set- 4
SM de-lamination weapons detonated- 0
Times I've burned half the ship to a crisp- 5
Times I've burned half the ship to a crisp ACCIDENTALLY- 2
Engine SMs de-laminated on my watch- 0

Upper deck engines made-1
Lower deck engines made-1

Total kills with SM- 6

Most surgeries done at once- 3
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Most perdiox made w/in 5 min of roundstart- 540u

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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Surrealistik » 29 Oct 2016, 15:48

JPR wrote:"Heating" mobs (objects can't currently be heated) could work, but the regular air temp would quickly cool them down, but that can be worked around.
I'm thinking the target's heat would be set to the flame's burning temperature every tick modified by atmospheric temperatures; this could result in more or less damage, which is fine. Also by objects I meant stuff like walls and such when can melt/be damaged by heat.
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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Jroinc1 » 29 Oct 2016, 23:45

You have to be ABSURDLY hot to melt walls. I've actually never seen it, with a 50,000 degree burnchamber. As far as I know, that (and glass) are the only damageable things currently.
Mentor-
3 Nov 16-15 Jan 17

Atmos bombs built- 16
Hull breaches repaired- 6
Charged SMs manually dragged to space- 2
Backup tcomms systems set- 4
SM de-lamination weapons detonated- 0
Times I've burned half the ship to a crisp- 5
Times I've burned half the ship to a crisp ACCIDENTALLY- 2
Engine SMs de-laminated on my watch- 0

Upper deck engines made-1
Lower deck engines made-1

Total kills with SM- 6

Most surgeries done at once- 3
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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Surrealistik » 30 Oct 2016, 01:10

JPR wrote:You have to be ABSURDLY hot to melt walls. I've actually never seen it, with a 50,000 degree burnchamber. As far as I know, that (and glass) are the only damageable things currently.
I've started to melt walls while making plasma bombs. The magic number seems to be around 55,000-60,000
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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Jroinc1 » 30 Oct 2016, 10:13

Surrealistik wrote:I've started to melt walls while making plasma bombs. The magic number seems to be around 55,000-60,000
Which is what I mean by ABSURDLY HOT. How did you even GET that high? My mixes top out at 50,000, and I'm using an optimal burnmix with no other gasses, unless you're pre-heating the mix somehow?
Mentor-
3 Nov 16-15 Jan 17

Atmos bombs built- 16
Hull breaches repaired- 6
Charged SMs manually dragged to space- 2
Backup tcomms systems set- 4
SM de-lamination weapons detonated- 0
Times I've burned half the ship to a crisp- 5
Times I've burned half the ship to a crisp ACCIDENTALLY- 2
Engine SMs de-laminated on my watch- 0

Upper deck engines made-1
Lower deck engines made-1

Total kills with SM- 6

Most surgeries done at once- 3
Most anesthetic tanks used in a round- 3
Most surgeries done using only personal supplies- 37
Most perdiox made w/in 5 min of roundstart- 540u

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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Surrealistik » 30 Oct 2016, 15:48

JPR wrote:Which is what I mean by ABSURDLY HOT. How did you even GET that high? My mixes top out at 50,000, and I'm using an optimal burnmix with no other gasses, unless you're pre-heating the mix somehow?
Dump 3x canisters of 33 Oxygen/66 Phoron into the heating chamber (after you've evacuated it by opening it into space) and ignite.
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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Jroinc1 » 30 Oct 2016, 16:00

Surrealistik wrote:Dump 3x canisters of 33 Oxygen/66 Phoron into the heating chamber (after you've evacuated it by opening it into space) and ignite.
That's what I do. And it maxes out at 50,000.
Mentor-
3 Nov 16-15 Jan 17

Atmos bombs built- 16
Hull breaches repaired- 6
Charged SMs manually dragged to space- 2
Backup tcomms systems set- 4
SM de-lamination weapons detonated- 0
Times I've burned half the ship to a crisp- 5
Times I've burned half the ship to a crisp ACCIDENTALLY- 2
Engine SMs de-laminated on my watch- 0

Upper deck engines made-1
Lower deck engines made-1

Total kills with SM- 6

Most surgeries done at once- 3
Most anesthetic tanks used in a round- 3
Most surgeries done using only personal supplies- 37
Most perdiox made w/in 5 min of roundstart- 540u

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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Surrealistik » 30 Oct 2016, 16:19

JPR wrote:That's what I do. And it maxes out at 50,000.
Maybe they've added a temp cap since the last time I made plasma bombs, but I doubt it. Are you sure you added all three to the chamber before igniting? The only other thing I can think of is that you didn't let the oxygen burn fully, or I added more oxygen.
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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by YungCuz » 30 Oct 2016, 22:25

I want to just -1 it for giggles but Fire stuff is great.
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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Derpislav » 31 Oct 2016, 15:41

Upvoting for way too many reasons to list.
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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by Surrealistik » 09 Nov 2016, 23:46

Bump due to being on 2nd page.
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Re: Napalm/Hydrocarbons/Incendiaries Overhaul

Post by KingKire » 27 Dec 2016, 14:26

+1: there might need some work to get everything perfect. im not completely sold on the fire damage system, i think there might be a simpler way to execute it, but i do like the idea of creating a set of "flamable liquids" that can be created/ used/ found. I am definitly a fan of having more "sticky" fire that can actually catch mobs alight when they move through it or stay in it. ( small idea, maybe have standing in a fire deal some oxygen damage/ lung damage. Small nitpick for me though) I really would like to see napalm and flamers have a more dangerous impact to the area around them.

If i had to simulate fire damage: how hot the fuel burns = damage, how much fuel is present = how long it stays alight. If we can get that point accross, i feel like it would be a solid system.
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