A issue on marine crossing.

[Recounted]

It's very obvious that sometimes some grey tide xenos let marines folow them across the river, marking the one thing that happens ALMOST every round. Meta rushing it pisses the xeno players off and admins to since marines keep at it (even when bombards happen on the river and marines still hold the river). But is it really always the marines fault? Not much rounds ago there was a time when T3's and T2's started attacking the marines who did not even begin going to river at all yet, not to mention more so that The carriers, ravs, you name it they are already attacking the south side of the river and making hive fortresses in there, not even that much as 25 minutes when the marines 1st deployed. It's just plain unfair when xenos can get away with this stuff even though marines get bitched at by command and admins when xenos are literally luring them to cross the river.

Did I forget to mention the fact while marines are around hydro and med dome area that they get bombarded by boilers and attacked by ravs and crushers? Sure thats a good way to catch a few marines for the hive but when the xenos start getting their ass kicked in by marines and fall back to the river, marines cannot just push up to finish them, they get the mother announcement that some kind of migration happens and all that shit.

What can we even do to help stop such unfair tactics when xenos themselves brought marines waiting across the river by the early rounds of them getting cocky?

[Recounted]

It might look like a rant but it's not. I just want to see what the community thinks about this whole marine issue.

[Sargeantmuffinman]

I'll give you some proper answer soon.

Tomorrow maybe but I'll give you one.

[Eenkogneeto]

Marines in force shouldn't be anywhere near the river. At most one squad should be there scouting, get chased off by bugs, and retreat to safer locations until the designated assault time when the FOB is actually secure.
Way too often lately I see marines have a 'fob' at hydro while lzs are both completely unguarded, leaving a single hunter to kill 30-40 marines between LZ and hydro and all the wounded completely unguarded. It leads to a marine loss in the majority of cases.

[Abbysynth]

The big issue is that it's practically impossible to defend any areas for any length of time anymore. Sentries nerfed, Nexus defenses nerfed, xenos buffed, many defenses now breakable by xenos - whereas xenos do equally well attacking or defending, marines really only have mines going for them, which are a) in limited supply and b) easily countered by a single Crusher, who can destroy 200 cargo points worth of explosives in a matter of seconds. By the time marines are "allowed" to cross the river and make an offensive attack, xenos are already heavily fortified, well entrenched, and know where all the marine defenses are placed so they can quickly get around them. Add something like a lack of engineers in a round, or Predators slowing down fort building and you end up with many dead and frustrated marines.

That being said, why is it okay for xenos to metarush and drive marines off the planet < 1 hour into the game? It's happened many times and is just as toxic, particularly now since xenos are typically so strong that if marines haven't had time to set up defenses, and xenos are gathered together to fight, the marines will get wiped.

That said, here's a few ideas I think could help:

* Allow one squad (the scouts) to advance wherever they want, whenever.
* Give engineers 50 plasteel instead of 30. The spares are always stolen from engineering anyway.
* Make Sentries Great Again (longer range, faster shooting, or more hp). Make them upgradeable in the field with spare parts and steel plating.
* Make floodlights brighter, take longer to slash, and give a noise when they START being slashed instead of when they're finished. Maybe a % chance of an electric shock would be good as well.
* Have OBP buildings in the colony require 4+ marines for, say, 3 minutes inside it for the building to be considered "searched", which could randomly drop some items under tables, in lockers, or in crates. Marines have to search every building before they're able to cross the river.

[Snypehunter007]

Lets look at this from both the marine's and xeno's POV.

If you LEAD the marines to your location, that is YOUR own fault. The xenos, at least lore wise, are supposed to be stealthy and while they have buffs in the game to make it playable for xenos to win in open combat, you shouldn't be getting caught as a xeno so early in the round.

The flip side is when the marines push to the med dome and just kinda sit there WAITING for the xenos to bait them. THAT is inexcusable on the marines part and this is what typically occurs when we have what is considered a "bad" metarush. If you aren't at least "attempting" to look like you are searching the whole colony, you are playing it wrong.

Edit:

* Allow one squad (the scouts) to advance wherever they want, whenever.

Staff typically allow this IF their is a proper reason for the marines to be searching North.

[Simo94]

telling marines not to cross the river is like putting a cake in front of a 4 years old and telling him not to touch it, just CODE IT IN, a river wall with a bridge or like nightmare thick fog, fking simple really

[Casany]

telling marines not to cross the river is like putting a cake in front of a 4 years old and telling him not to touch it, just CODE IT IN, a river wall with a bridge or like nightmare thick fog, fking simple really

But it isn't so "fking" simple. Mapping and coding are both long processes that require time to do, and most of the time it doesn't work.

[Karmac]

I recall some admin once made it so the river was covered in heavy radiation or some other horrible poison, this worked well to deter marine forces from rushing in.

[Recounted]

Lets look at this from both the marine's and xeno's POV.

If you LEAD the marines to your location, that is YOUR own fault. The xenos, at least lore wise, are supposed to be stealthy and while they have buffs in the game to make it playable for xenos to win in open combat, you shouldn't be getting caught as a xeno so early in the round.

The flip side is when the marines push to the med dome and just kinda sit there WAITING for the xenos to bait them. THAT is inexcusable on the marines part and this is what typically occurs when we have what is considered a "bad" metarush. If you aren't at least "attempting" to look like you are searching the whole colony, you are playing it wrong.

Edit:

Staff typically allow this IF their is a proper reason for the marines to be searching North.

So you say that marines should just go to fitness and research and not bother to check out hydro? Yeah it's true that the Squad leaders don't do shit to move their squad else where all the time and get them camping but it's easy just for a few drones to come down to hydro and get a hive set up there if marines don't check that dome out.

[Snypehunter007]

So you say that marines should just go to fitness and research and not bother to check out hydro? Yeah it's true that the Squad leaders don't do shit to move their squad else where all the time and get them camping but it's easy just for a few drones to come down to hydro and get a hive set up there if marines don't check that dome out.

I am not saying that they shouldn't go check the domes out, but they shouldn't make a beeline for JUST those domes.

[Renomaki]

I am not saying that they shouldn't go check the domes out, but they shouldn't make a beeline for JUST those domes.

I see this a lot as a marine, where squads on patrol will head up north, go to medical/hydro, and then they just kinda bum around the place, ignoring places like robotics, fitness and science.

When I go SL and have patrol duty, I prefer to make a watchpost at robotics, which is further from the river, but still close enough to give advance warning in case a swarm of xenos comes in. The heavy foliage also makes it harder for boilers to attack, so you won't have marines panicking and using it as an excuse to rush the river.

Hell, the far western side of the map is hardly traveled because most marines never bother to go that far before digging in at the common forward staging base that is medbay/hydro, which I admit is a HORRIBLE place to set up, since unless you have a lot of cover set up and squads covering the east and west flank, it just gets rolled over constantly.

Sometimes I think that the main reason marines metarush is because the majority of the force is already on the planet, rather than only a part of the force with the rest funneling in drop by drop. If marines have less troops on the ground, then maybe they won't be as willing to rush the hive right away?

[Egorkor]

I see this a lot as a marine, where squads on patrol will head up north, go to medical/hydro, and then they just kinda bum around the place, ignoring places like robotics, fitness and science.

When I go SL and have patrol duty, I prefer to make a watchpost at robotics, which is further from the river, but still close enough to give advance warning in case a swarm of xenos comes in. The heavy foliage also makes it harder for boilers to attack, so you won't have marines panicking and using it as an excuse to rush the river.

Hell, the far western side of the map is hardly traveled because most marines never bother to go that far before digging in at the common forward staging base that is medbay/hydro, which I admit is a HORRIBLE place to set up, since unless you have a lot of cover set up and squads covering the east and west flank, it just gets rolled over constantly.

Sometimes I think that the main reason marines metarush is because the majority of the force is already on the planet, rather than only a part of the force with the rest funneling in drop by drop. If marines have less troops on the ground, then maybe they won't be as willing to rush the hive right away?

last time three squads were told to stay on the sulaco until the first one scouts it ended with the scouts getting rekt immediately and the alien win in one hour, though. dropping them one by one is bad.

[Renomaki]

last time three squads were told to stay on the sulaco until the first one scouts it ended with the scouts getting rekt immediately and the alien win in one hour, though. dropping them one by one is bad.

I certainly don't mean to only drop a single squad. Mainly drop them in twos, with the first two setting up the FoB and power (and comms if needed), and the other two deploying to go on patrol on the second drop (or when comms is back online, because it is hell on earth managing 4 squads without comms).

Tossing everyone down at once is also just as bad I notice, because it often becomes a clusterfuck that is hard to manage, and one of those squads are bound to go full retard and metarush the river.. There is always one, and often it is a patrolling squad.

[Simo94]

But it isn't so "fking" simple. Mapping and coding are both long processes that require time to do, and most of the time it doesn't work.

......are u srs?

both of the options i mentioned were done before on the LV map, just add them back..........

[Casany]

......are u srs?

both of the options i mentioned were done before on the LV map, just add them back..........

Still, it isn't as simple as you think. Hows about you try to code or map and get back to me

[Simo94]

Still, it isn't as simple as you think. Hows about you try to code or map and get back to me

no shit sherlock coding is hard, but the effort is already done, why waste it

[Snypehunter007]

no shit sherlock coding is hard, but the effort is already done, why waste it

I assume what you talking about is the fog wall and poisonous river of Nightmare correct?

[Simo94]

no just the fog wall, no need for poisonous water

[Telegnats]

I think the biggest problem is just that there is fuck all for the marines to do besides sit around and wait for a fight to start. We can do whatever we want to dissuade them from crossing but as long as there's literally nothing else for them to do, I think it's highly probable that marines will just sit on the edge until they get some arbitrary green light. Meta rushing or whatever we call it appears to just be a symptom of a larger problem.

[poopbutt69]

its a map design flaw. i think this has been recognized, and they have been trying to think of some ways to tweek it to avoid it.


but realistically, i don't think its a big deal. marines pushing into the river almost always ends with them dying. the river is horrible for marines because its far from any areas of retreat or supply, it slows them, is a massive friendly fire trap, and is easily surrounded. they fight a war of attrition through the river against alien walls that are infinitely replaceable, and tag aliens that just heal and come out and spit again.

a war of slow attrition against aliens almost always ends up with aliens winning. thats why river attacks almost always fail. exceptions occur when really talented marines go ham.

but probably, even if marines attacked the river early, they would be facing 15ish aliens, with about 30 minutes of preparation to build walls and eggs and sticky resin. so i really don't think its as bad as everyone says.

plus, marines are always disorganized, what would most likely happen is 5-6 idiot rambos would solo across river, get destroyed, and then rinse repeat, 5ish marines at a time.

rushing really only works if its really coordinated, really quick and really to the point, and marines almost always are incapable of this even if they had the ability.

[LordeKilly]

The big issue is that it's practically impossible to defend any areas for any length of time anymore. Sentries nerfed, Nexus defenses nerfed, xenos buffed, many defenses now breakable by xenos - whereas xenos do equally well attacking or defending, marines really only have mines going for them, which are a) in limited supply and b) easily countered by a single Crusher, who can destroy 200 cargo points worth of explosives in a matter of seconds. By the time marines are "allowed" to cross the river and make an offensive attack, xenos are already heavily fortified, well entrenched, and know where all the marine defenses are placed so they can quickly get around them. Add something like a lack of engineers in a round, or Predators slowing down fort building and you end up with many dead and frustrated marines.

That being said, why is it okay for xenos to metarush and drive marines off the planet < 1 hour into the game? It's happened many times and is just as toxic, particularly now since xenos are typically so strong that if marines haven't had time to set up defenses, and xenos are gathered together to fight, the marines will get wiped.

That said, here's a few ideas I think could help:

* Allow one squad (the scouts) to advance wherever they want, whenever.
* Give engineers 50 plasteel instead of 30. The spares are always stolen from engineering anyway.
* Make Sentries Great Again (longer range, faster shooting, or more hp). Make them upgradeable in the field with spare parts and steel plating.
* Make floodlights brighter, take longer to slash, and give a noise when they START being slashed instead of when they're finished. Maybe a % chance of an electric shock would be good as well.
* Have OBP buildings in the colony require 4+ marines for, say, 3 minutes inside it for the building to be considered "searched", which could randomly drop some items under tables, in lockers, or in crates. Marines have to search every building before they're able to cross the river.

My one regret is that you didn't develop an upvote button for the forums before you left.

[ColdSuit]

My issue is that despite even when Marines metarush the river, its an alien victory anyway. The ground fight is a total battle of attrition that, when prolonged, xenos will win every single time, particularly with the average 2 hours plus rounds. As a round progresses for xenos, Marines:
-Lose ammo and equipment
-Lose valuable personnel such as specs and SLs (and their respective equipment)
-An alien is bound to wind up on the Sulaco. If this alien is sufficiently skilled, its gonna gut invaluable noncombat personnel such as doctors and BOs.
-Become increasingly combat ineffective with injuries and captured/KIAs

Meanwhile xenos:
-Become increasingly stronger with evolutions/upgrades
-By planting weeds everywhere, gain plasma (ammo) and health practically anywhere on the map
-Gain numbers by infecting a quite healthy supply of roundstart groundside hosts (wildlife) and marines
-Injuries are meaningless with a few minutes on weeds (a fraction of the time required to get even a simple injury healed) even from major damage such as SADARs or AP rounds
-Can negate a considerable amount of damage with increasingly large amount of armor, needing a massive amount of ammo to even down a xeno

Add in muntinies, bad personnel, bad ERT events, and general prep fuckery before briefing even starts, its a recipe for disaster.

[Derpislav]

The metarush is caused by bad design, not bad playerbase mentality.
- Non-engineers have fuck-all to do until a charge is declared
- Aliens are always in the same spot
- It's beneficial for aliens to stay in said same spot every single time
- Aliens become stronger over time
- Non-engineers become weaker over time
- Map is obviously and visibly separated into "their" and "our" halves
- Marines get punished both in-game and OOCly for scouting in small packs
- Aliens can go anywhere alone, all they have to do if they fuck up is reach the river, marines can't pursue them past it

I could go on for hours.
As it stand correctly I blame game design for the issue, and I believe mostly marines lose on it. Metarushed xenos just get easy kills due to admin-caused bombards, radiation, carp migrations (...), while marines are equally fucked if they metarush and if they don't.

[RavingManiac]

One idea:

Have cave systems in two, maybe ever three or all four sides of the map. The aliens spawn randomly in one of these sides.

This prevents the marines from immediately meta-rushing the nest even if the rules allow it, since they literally don't know where the nest is. The aliens can easily hide the nest location by not leading the marines directly to it. A scouting party will have to be sent out to pinpoint the nest, or the marines risk getting lost in the caves without reaching their objective.